Sherry Walling - 0:00:04
I'm beginning to see a lot of practitioners define themselves as psychedelic integration therapists, and while the role is an important one, it's not a term to throw around lightly. It's not as simple as one might think. A psychedelic experience is usually not a complete therapeutic solution by itself. Whether someone takes ayahuasca in the South American jungle or works with ibogaine at a clinic in North America, how an individual prepares, experiences support during, and processes the event after. Those are all core parts of healing. The psychedelic journey itself is often just the beginning of a much longer more involved healing process. It takes work to incorporate a journey into day-to-day life.

Sherry Walling - 0:00:46
And for many, it also takes some help. Welcome to MIND CURIOUS, a podcast for those looking to explore the healing potential of psychedelic compounds. I'm your host, clinical psychologist, Dr. Sherry Walling. Before we dive in, a friendly reminder that this podcast is not a substitute for medical care or legal advice. The perspectives of the guests are theirs alone and they don't represent me, my opinions, or those of our sponsor,  Mind Cure Health.

Sherry Walling - 0:01:23
So, let's take a moment and talk about what integration means. Many people take psychedelics with the intention of healing trauma, working through depression, eliminating addiction, and a myriad of other things. But embarking on a psychedelic journey might promote new thoughts, feelings, or memories. These revelations can be difficult to process and apply to your life once the medicine has worn off, but bridging the space between the medicine world and the day-to-day lived reality of our life is key to healing and growth. Integration therapy provides the resources and space to understand and accept the most important lessons from a psychedelic journey.

Sherry Walling - 0:02:12
All of the major protocols that are working through the FDA approval process involve the pairing of psychedelics with some kind of systematic approach to psychotherapy. In this episode, I'm talking to three practitioners exploring the different applications of integration therapy. First stop is Stephanie Dreis. Stephanie is a trained therapist who had her own healing journey in the Netherlands. She is now working as an integration therapist focused largely on ketamine-assisted psychotherapy.

Sherry Walling - 0:02:49
She also leads an integration therapy group in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. I feel like the word integration is used so much now and any clinician who's like remotely interested in psychedelics is like, "Oh, I'm an integration therapist," or "I'm an integration coach," and I don't know that there's even like a really good solid understanding of what we mean when we use that word.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:03:21
Yeah, I agree with that too. I went to a workshop on integration and I still didn't know what it meant after that either.

Sherry Walling - 00:03:30
Oh-oh.

Stephanie Dreis - 00:03:32
I mean, it was great learning about psychedelics and the history and connecting with other people, but I do feel like it's a word that's thrown around, and there isn't quite a definition for it. I feel like every person has their own definition of what integration is.

Sherry Walling - 0:03:50
What is it for you? Like when you think about helping someone with integration or when somebody maybe has a psychedelic experience and comes to you and says, "You know, Stephanie, I need someone to help walk me through this."

Stephanie Dreis - 0:04:05
Yeah, so I guess I'll speak from my own experience like what integration means for me in my own personal work is finding more of my authentic self like my whole self, and trying to incorporate that more into me as a whole person, and like having the courage to do that as well. Previous to using psychedelics, I was a very like socially anxious person. I wouldn't talk to people. I'd feel very nervous beforehand and afterwards, I realized like how much I love people, I enjoy people, being around them, and talking with them. Those like defeating thoughts were still there and so part of that was having the bravery to like still have those thoughts and move forward.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:04:43
You know, it's important for me to connect with people and just keep proving myself wrong that, you know, people aren't going to judge me or reject me. And here I am like leading integration circles, which is something

Sherry Walling - 00:05:05
Yeah.

Stephanie Dreis - 00:05:06
I would have never done before all of this. I would have been too shy or nervous to do any of that.

Sherry Walling - 0:05:13
So, it sounds like it's part of the practice of taking the insights or the new learning from the medicine session and translating them back to your everyday lived experience. So, you have the spark of recognition that, "Oh wait, I actually really enjoy and love people. How do I practically apply that when I'm no longer under the influence of a medicine?"

Stephanie Dreis - 0:05:35
Yeah, it takes a lot of bravery to be our authentic selves and I think that's it. It's more showing who we are and having that bravery to show other people that because so much of what we do is hiding that. So, having that courage to show, "This is me, that's what it means for me."

Sherry Walling - 0:05:55
And when you put on your professional hat as a therapist, is the mission the same in the sense that, you know, someone may come to you and is working through how to honor an insight that they had under medicine and they're asking you for help doing that. Like how do you show up or how do you frame your work when you're in the therapist chair?

Stephanie Dreis - 0:06:17
Yeah, I am always amazed at that inner healing intelligence that's there. So, seeing what's coming up for them and how they navigate that, really meeting them where they're at with the experience. That's just so different for everyone that's like seeing-- yeah, like what authentic part is coming up and like where is that dissonance with their-- like how they want to be and what their actual lived experience is, and then how to fit that into their everyday experience.

Sherry Walling - 0:06:49
So, you're like looking for the gap between the true self and the lived reality and then helping people to navigate that gap or bridge the gap?

Stephanie Dreis - 00:06:58
Yeah.

Sherry Walling - 0:06:59
An integration guide can help patients move past the dissonance between what's happening in their deep subconscious and what they're experiencing in their day-to-day lives. After the psychedelic experience, people have to analyze what they've gone through, and connect it with their lived reality. But according to our next guest, Laura Mae Northrup, integration therapy isn't just about what happens after the psychedelic session. It's also about appropriate preparation. Laura is an educator and psychotherapist who focuses much of her work on recovery from sexual trauma. She's the creator of Inside Eyes, a podcast about using entheogens and psychedelics to heal from sexual trauma. Tell me a little bit about how you think about the relationship between the medicine session and integration.

Sherry Walling - 0:07:50
I feel like that word gets used a lot. I feel like maybe I'm not always clear on what people mean when they talk about that. Like I was reading a protocol recently that someone sent, and it was like all this information about what happens in the ketamine session, and then there was almost this afterthought, this footnote of like, and "Then there will be integration," and it's like, "Woah, what's that?" So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:08:23
Yeah, that's such a good question because the term gets kind of thrown around a lot and it's like, "Oh yeah, exactly what does that really mean?" I would say my big focus is more on preparation and I can speak to integration. And a lot of people say preparation is included in integration but oftentimes, people use the term to mean after the ceremony or the session. And what I mean by preparation is-- so people talk a lot about intentions, like having an intention that you bring to the medicine. And for people who are listening and that's kind of confusing, I'll just say basically the intention could be like, "I want to heal from my sexual trauma," let's just say. The more work that you do beforehand, the deeper you can go in your psychedelic work.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:09:02
So, if you go in and your intention is, "I just want to know what my next step," is or something. Something kind of vague, you're going to spend your session of the medicine work doing the work that you may be actually could have done beforehand. And the only reason I-- I mean that's fine if that's where people are at. The only reason I would maybe say to do it differently than that is because it takes a lot of work. It's, oftentimes, expensive like I kind of feel like if you're going to go in and do some psychedelic work, you might, you know, really want to make it as powerful as possible.

Sherry Walling - 00:09:38
Make those minutes count.

Laura Mae Northrup - 00:09:40
Yeah, and so for that reason, like you might be journaling beforehand, you might be building a meditation practice, you might be singing, you might be just doing-- you might be going to dance classes or dancing in your home, doing something that is gearing you up. And I think introspection, getting connected to your body, and especially getting connected to your breath are three sort of big prep things that you can do and especially with the meditation or building a breathing practice. So that, I think, the reason why that level of preparation is important is that if you are working on trauma and you're doing psychedelic work, it's probably going to be hard. I know very few people who have gone in and done that kind of work and it felt easy. It's usually hard.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:10:26
And when it's really, really intense, being able to connect back to your breath and remember, "I'm alive right now, I'm breathing. I actually do have the agency. My body will keep me alive no matter what. Even if I completely lose my ego, my body will keep breathing." That can just be so grounding.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:10:45
But if you have no connection to your body, you haven't done any breathing exercises, you've never meditated, you know, all this stuff, it can be kind of hard to get to that. So, I think that that's a really good prep thing to do. And then in terms of integration, you know, a lot of people go into this work and they're like, "I just want the medicine to heal me, and then I come out and I just keep living my life the way it is and I'm fine." And it's like, "Well, you might come out and realize like, actually, yeah, you are in an abusive relationship with your boss. You actually do have to quit your job," or like, "You actually are going to have to tell your dad, you know, make a boundary with him and that you're not going to be his parent anymore," or whatever the thing is.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:11:19
And so, a lot of times the really, really hard work happens after the journey when you kind of have to come back to your life and you have to negotiate everything that needs to change. And I think that's a lot of integration work. But you know also just landing, having people who you trust, having people who understand what you went through. There are many people who will not understand because they don't do the work and that's totally fine. But you might want to have people who, at least at bare minimum, just support you in your psychedelic work.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:11:49
I think being in therapy is a great way to be doing integration, but yeah, in terms of like what is integration, I feel like it's a buzzword that means a lot.

Sherry Walling - 0:12:02
Uh-hum and I think people who are curious about this work, you know, the entry point for many people at this point is to be an integration therapist or to help be an integration coach. I do integration work that's, for many of us in the context of the U.S. at least, like the legal way to engage in these conversations. But there's again not much nuance or depth toward what that actually means. When you-- given your expertise in working with sexual trauma, what tend to be some of the components of integration that come up most often in your work or things that you're really working with people post medicine?

Laura Mae Northrup - 00:12:42
I think I can just be so specific to the person.

Sherry Walling - 00:12:47
Yeah.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:12:47
I think one really big thing is just being a lot more present to what someone is actually experiencing. And so, what I mean by that is either that there's such an intense level of dissociation before the journey work that is then no longer so dissociated. So, just feeling things that you haven't felt before, being aware of ways you feel about people in your life that you haven't really actually felt into, or something that's not quite dissociation but more like denial. And so, there are many survivors of sexual trauma live with a lot of denial and it'll be denial of like, "I don't like that thing. That thing makes me uncomfortable and part of me knows it, but I'm going to just kind of push it away, and keep going and pretend that it doesn't bother me," or feel like, you know, a lot of sexual trauma survivors feel like they can kind of handle anything and it's like, "Okay, like you can handle it, like what's the impact it has on your life to be, you know, kind of surviving, like for example, being in a really toxic relationship?" It's like, "Well, maybe you can handle that your partner threatens to leave you once a week or you have blowout fights like you're handling it, but is it actually like are you really okay? And what's that kind of limiting your life?" So, I think getting more realistic about what's actually uncomfortable and then in the integration work really having to accept a lot of personal limitations.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:14:02
And there can be a lot of grief and I think that's another big piece is the grief. It's just kind of like grief is such a part of trauma. It's just really accepting, "This actually happened. It actually happened and nothing is going to make it not have happened." And that could look like you live the rest of your life actually quite happy but this did really still happen.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:14:32
And it could also look like you're still suffering and I think being able to just really tolerate the grief.

Sherry Walling - 0:14:42
I appreciate you saying this because I do think that for some of us, in our minds, we've equated healing and happiness or on the other side of this work, "I'll feel better," and of course, that's also part of the process for many. The sense of feeling better but along with that can come this depth of grief that I think sometimes people aren't quite prepared for because we've learned to cope, right? We've learned to manage with the traumas that we carry often without fully really sitting with the implications of what have happened, which is of course grief in many reactions.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:15:29
Yeah, and I think that culturally, there's a lot of emphasis on getting away from suffering. And that's just not reality, like reality is that we suffer a lot. And I think that I want everybody to be able to heal from PTSD. I do not want people to have to live their whole lives traumatized. But in terms of living your life without suffering, it's just not realistic. And certainly, I think, when you've suffered really a lot and there's tons of grief and you've lived through horrible trauma, it can be nice to kind of fantasize that there's a place that you could get to.

Laura Mae Northrup - 0:15:58
I think there can kind of be both, like, "I'll never heal," and also like, "If I just do this one last thing, if I just do this thing, if I just do this thing," you know, "I won't be suffering anymore." Yeah, well, actually like so many people had kind of said this in different ways but like learning how to suffer better, like learning how to actually just suffer and make it effective and meaningful suffering rather than fighting against the suffering. And I'll say too, you know, I think that piece about sort of the dissociation and the denial and the integration afterwards, there's just a lot about being able to tolerate feelings and not so much of what is sort of making suffering worse is like, "Can you actually just tolerate being mad? Can you actually just tolerate feeling grief or feeling fear?" And if you're overwhelmed and your nervous system's been very overwhelmed by trauma, maybe even compounded by other types of wounding, it can be really hard just to kind of tolerate the feelings of everyday life.

Sherry Walling - 0:17:05
It's easier to recognize the revelations of the psychedelic experience when your integration guide has learned to manage these emotions as well. They are personally familiar with edge states as well as the complexity of integration. The uniqueness of these experiences arguably calls for practitioners with training and personal experience with psychedelics. Dr. Dan Engle is an integrative psychiatrist and neurologist who focuses on Peak Performance Medicine and psychedelic research. He's also a consultant and primary researcher at Mind Cure Health. We will hear from Dr. Dan a few times in the course of this podcast season.

Sherry Walling - 0:17:39
His interdisciplinary approach and experience gives him a perspective that, I think, is incredibly valuable as integration therapy comes more popular and psychedelics become more part of typical treatment programs in Western medicine. One of the things that we're beginning to see as there's more and more attention on these medicines and in the development of this field is all kinds of like be in integration facilitator trainings that are popping up for mental health professionals, for people who are not mental health professionals, kind of across the board. In your opinion Dan, what are the things that really go into making someone a competent, qualified facilitator, psychedelic therapist, whatever sort of phrase you want to use? What do they need to go through or have experienced before they're sitting for someone?

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:18:39
Yeah, super good question. We could probably spend an hour talking about that alone.

Sherry Walling - 0:18:44
Absolutely. It's a big one.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:18:47
Yeah, I think it's really good to have three things at minimum. Supervision of somebody who's highly skilled, highly trained as an experience of both the traditional process of using these powerful tools and the contemporary landscape, the more modern kind of research and being up to date. So, supervision, mentorship, and somebody to go to really be able to facilitate the excellence of their training. Secondly, they need the textbook. And thirdly, they need the workbook. So, the textbook is kinda like if you're in science class, you're in chemistry class, you get the textbook, and you learn all about it from the book. All the different...

Sherry Walling - 0:19:32
Formulas, the equations, the breakdown.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:19:36
Right, right. Here's the data, but then it's in the laboratory that you get the workbook and you test it out and you put yourself in the experience and get your own felt wisdom, not just knowledge, right? 'Cause we're going to get knowledge from the textbook but it becomes wisdom when we apply it in the laboratory of our own experience. So, people going through facilitation training should have their own experience. We can only help people go as far as we've gone. Otherwise, it's just mutual exploration.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:20:06
So, there are a lot of, for example, if we make this a bit more granular, 10 years ago, there were maybe half a dozen ketamine clinics in the country. Now, there are 300 plus and growing, and many of these ketamine clinics are led by people who don't have understanding or appreciation or experience in their own depth psychology and their own understanding and felt knowing of what it means to go through healing process. And if they're the ones that are essentially setting up the clinical framework for a therapeutic process, they're only doing it from the experience in their limited capacity, and it's not (inaudible) wrong. It's just recognition that they don't have all of the tools or understanding in order to facilitate that in a good way. So, there are a lot of people going through a ketamine experience who spontaneously recovering traumatic memories that weren't anticipated and now they don't know what to do with it and the physician or whoever is running that clinic.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:21:00
If it's a therapist, then a therapist already has that training or some degree of that training. But we have a lot of anesthesiologists who are running IV ketamine clinics and don't have that kind of psychological background. So, if somebody pops out with traumatic experience, then it's highly uncomfortable and inconvenient, and everybody just tries to sweep it back under the rug.

Sherry Walling - 0:21:28
Or there's some weird referral to someone else but then it's disjointed and not consistent.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:21:34
Right. Yep, this is a big-- this is a Wild West. Psychedelic medicine therapy is in the Wild West right now. We're actively serving and exploring new landscapes while we're piecemealing the standards of care and clinical excellence required in order to solidify to the best of our ability the opportunity to guarantee a safe and effective experience. So, it's extraordinarily important for people to have some degree of excellence in their training and there's a variety of different trainings out there. You mentioned coaching or you were kind of alluding to coaching like, you know, somebody outside of a specific therapeutic licensure clinical academic experience. Maybe they have a bunch of life experiences. I know a lot of facilitators who have amazing life experience and I would trust them with my process or my family's process.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:22:31
They don't have any exact psychotherapeutic training and licensure. On the contrary, I know a lot of great therapists who haven't done this kind of work and are starting to get into this space, but they don't have an understanding of its nuances and it's real, unique kind of approach because these are such accelerated tools for healing so you can go through a lot of work in a really quick space, but it's like surfing or any other kind of adventure sport. If you just start on a black diamond without really getting your skis underneath, you're probably gonna wreck. And if you are facilitating that for somebody else and they wreck, then they're going to be looking to you to help them get back up, coach them through it as opposed to just like freak out and bail, and then try and call 911, and then get the ski patrol as quick as possible, you know.

Sherry Walling - 0:23:31
And I think what this new science is really challenging a lot of our training models even within the therapeutic world. You know, that's where I come from and very little of my training as a psychologist involved anything related to somatic process that I was just a little bit earlier than the bulk of Peter Levine's work or the big, big conversations that we're beginning to reintegrate the body into our sense of mental health. Should have been there the whole time but we lost it a little bit somewhere along the way and so, I think, that, you know, this work is really challenging even how we train people within the core disciplines to begin to reintegrate new conversations or reintroduce old conversations into how we're thinking about healing.

Dr. Dan Engle - 00:24:20
Yeah, and it's happening fast. If we just look longitudinally at the landscape about 10 years ago, no one was talking about, well, not no one, but on this scale, at this level, no one was talking about iboga, ibogaine, ayahuasca, a little bit of talk about psilocybin. There was growing talk about MDMA and Rick Doblin, and MAPS. They've done so much work to continue to hold the light and the opportunity and the potential for therapeutic psychedelic medicine to come back into the legal forum. Their approach has been principally around MDMA work and yet they've also consistently had on their website and that's part of their education advocacy, the benefit of other medicines.

Dr. Dan Engle - 0:25:06
So, you've had organizations that have been carrying it for a while and then all of a sudden there's this inflection point. And now, we're really seeing what's possible, and it's exciting, and there's a ton of interest in the space. And so, we're clamoring right now to put together the framework and excellence of care to really honor this kind of therapeutic process in the way that it needs to be honored and also solidify the training and the regulatory piece to make sure that we're doing our due diligence to create the best environment for its success.

Sherry Walling - 0:25:53
With the growth of interest in psychedelic therapies comes the looming importance of support. Right now, there is no standard training or standard of care for integration therapies. As psychedelic therapy grows in the field, integration practitioners are popping up to help guide people to prepare them for the psychedelic journey and to help them put the pieces together as they reconcile their medicine experiences with their lived day-to-day life. Stephanie goes about integration in a fairly unique way using a communal group-led approach. How does a peer integration circle work? How does the group work?

Stephanie Dreis - 0:26:37
Yeah, before I started this one, I went to a few and they are set up a little bit differently. Some, you know, definitely had facilitators or leaders who seem to be talking a lot or they were telling other people kind of what to do, and what I liked was someone who's just very laid back. They let the group speak and other people share, you know, their feedback. Like if someone was talking, you know, the whole group would share feedback and input. And I absolutely loved it and I felt so seen and heard when I went in that one.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:27:05
And so when I was starting mine, I was like, "Yeah, I really like that way of going about it." This way of-- like everybody has experience and perspective and knowledge and wisdom, so allowing everybody to share that. So, that's the format that I chose and have kept and it seems to be working very well. This magic of the group of people coming together and it's just always amazing just who shows up in like these connections and themes that come out in every single week that we have it. It's just-- it's so different, so beautiful.

Sherry Walling - 0:27:43
Have there been times when the therapist part of you wants to come in and caretake or "manage" the situation more?

Stephanie Dreis - 0:27:52
Yeah, definitely, that part of me does show up. I think the biggest part I had to overcome was more like feeling like I needed to be important, like I needed to do something, I needed to give all these interventions or show off or do all these techniques, and I realized more that I stepped back and let the group do its thing. Like the more people enjoyed it, like the more people seem to like get something out of it. So, I think that was the biggest thing that I had to overcome was this like feeling the need of importance or I had to like do something and more of just being with it and being in that space and being with the group.

Sherry Walling - 0:28:33
Like releasing the pressure to be the smartest one in the room or something.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:28:37
Yeah, oh definitely, yes, like I very much hold on to like this role of being a therapist. That's something I like to cling onto way too much. I need to look like that. Yeah.

Sherry Walling - 0:28:50
Nothing like some ego dissolving experiences disavow you of that.

Stephanie Dreis - 00:28:56
Definitely.

Sherry Walling - 0:28:59
So, as you observe and listen to your co-journeyers in the circle, are there themes that you notice or similar struggles that people seem to have as they're trying to bring their medicine experiences back into their lived daily life?

Stephanie Dreis - 0:29:19
I think something people struggle with is how to navigate talking about this with others. I'm very grateful like there's the Psychedelic Society and I can hold space for people to come together and have others to talk about. Some people don't have that and I have been doing these on Zoom due to the pandemic, and it's been really nice to have people who don't have a local society to go to, and so they feel welcome here and able to share their experiences with others. I think that's a big part of learning and integrating, is sharing what was there, putting that out there to another person, and so having others to like be open and receptive to hearing what someone else's experience is healing in itself too. So, that's something that people struggle with is, "How do I tell this with others?" or, "I feel so alone about this," or even some experiences are so ineffable that, "How do I put this into words?" And giving people time and space even to figure that out like just explaining how it was for them and talking from the heart, doing all that.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:30:25
It's-- yeah, I think that's a challenge for people.

Sherry Walling - 0:30:37
It's hard to know how to explain your own transformation when you're in the middle of it and it seems like folks who are doing some of this work and are trying to figure out how to share that with other people in their lives would really, really benefit from that safe space to be sort of mid metamorphosis, like not quite the before or after photos yet, but in the middle of the process where other people who are also mid process can reflect back and sort of experience that too.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:31:13
Yeah, it's definitely a process and a journey. It's not, "Okay, I did this one experience and here I am a changed different person." It's definitely a process and this growing process isn't a straight line. People are struggling and going to their depths and meeting that and, you know, a group to have compassion for that or to be like, "I've been there too with that, it's part of the process." You know, that encouragement to keep moving forward.

Stephanie Dreis - 0:31:41
Yeah, part of healing is the struggle in the steps that are there too. So, having that community to, you know, when we're at like our darkest times and like our depths, it's nice to have a community there to support people through that, know that, you know, it takes time to heal, and this too shall pass, it will eventually get better. So, that's nice but I could imagine some of that doesn't understand the experience and, you know, see someone's like worst period and say like, "This is terrible, don't." You know, "Why are you doing this?"

Sherry Walling - 0:32:21
"Why would you do this to yourself?"

Stephanie Dreis - 0:32:23
Yeah, because I'm seeing you at the worst like when, you know, when that progress line has dipped or gone backwards and thinking like, "Well, this doesn't work," rather than seeing the bigger picture and it is a line of progression, you know, zooming way out of it.

Sherry Walling - 0:32:46
Even though the process of integration can take time, these peer-group therapy sessions are highly effective. That shared experience whether it comes from peers or guides is valuable in helping people bridge the space from the medicine world to the "real world." The importance of having someone or a community of people to help weave the threat from your psychedelic journey back into your daily life cannot be overstated, and that's what integration therapy is. As we continue to have conversations about the value of therapeutic psychedelic use, it's important to remember that the therapy doesn't end when the drugs wear off. That's just the beginning of the journey of healing. Most of what hurts us as humans, most of the things that we are trying to heal from involves some sort of interpersonal trauma. They are relational injuries.

Sherry Walling - 0:33:34
And so, it stands to reason that it's relational support and relational aspect of healing that will help us find resilience and fullness in the aftermath of trauma and pain. Thank you to Stephanie, Laura, and Dan for helping me define integration and examine what it takes to make the practice of integration therapy successful. If you have comments or questions or suggestions for things that you'd like to hear us talk about on MIND CURIOUS, please feel free to reach out via any of our social media channels. We love your feedback. We love your reviews on iTunes, Spotify, all the typical places, but most of all, we're just glad you're here.

Sherry Walling - 0:34:16
Thanks for listening.