November 23, 2021

Lessons from the Land: Psychedelics and the Environment

Lessons from the Land: Psychedelics and the Environment

Sherry Walling - 0:00:08
Today, I am bringing you the full, mostly unedited version of the conversation that I had with Leia Friedman. You may know Leia for her work over at The Psychedologist where she hosts a podcast and shares information about psychology, altered states of consciousness, culture, sexuality, nature, wellness, a little bit of everything. Snippets of this conversation were featured in our episode about reciprocity and sustainability. I really value Leia's work because she is so thoughtful, not only about the outcomes that can be associated with the use of nonordinary states or psychedelic medicines, but she's very tuned into the how. How could nonordinary states be accessed in the most ethical way possible?

Sherry Walling - 0:00:48
How can plants be cultivated and harvested sustainably? How can the insights and lessons of enlightenment or raising to a higher consciousness be brought to bear in all aspects of life? Leia is a great question asker. So, it was my privilege to sit down and have the opportunity to ask her some questions about her life, her work, and her journey with psychedelic medicine. This is a conversation between two curious souls and is not intended to be medical or legal advice.

Sherry Walling - 0:01:16
Our perspectives belong to us individually and are not representative of our sponsor MIND CURE. Thank you for joining me for this conversation. Let's dive in. I guess it might be helpful to just start from a place where you live. I'm-- I'm curious about what it's been like for you to live on a farm.

Leia Friedman - 0:01:47
I did live on a farm for the last few years, but at the moment, I'm on the road. So, I actually moved out a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't move in anywhere, and I-- I had dear ones to see before COVID hit, and then COVID hit. I had left the farm. I went to another farm, COVID happened, so I was on a farm in Costa Rica for six months during the beginning of the pandemic. So now, I'm kind of completing what I had wanted to complete back in early 2020, which is seeing some loved ones and doing some work, ultimately completing a journey to New Mexico for sort of an ancestral pilgrimage of sorts.

Sherry Walling - 0:02:24
Amazing. I'm curious how it feels to be nomadic versus really grounded in a place where you have even a relationship with the ground.

Leia Friedman - 0:02:36
Uh-uh, yeah. Well, I like being on the road because I get to experience how I can be connected to a place even if I don't know it. Since I've been studying herbalism for the last few years, I've found that when I can recognize a plant, it's almost-- it's like seeing a familiar face. You know, it's like, "Oh yeah, there's that friend," and even knowing about their-- their personality like, "This one is good for breathing, like this friend helps with anxiety." So, I do feel at home in a way wherever I am, and I like the lightness of being on the road like the minimalism of just having the most essential things with me, and kind of the car being the home base. It's-- it can be challenging, and I do love being rooted, and I hope to be rooted soon because I'd like to be in deeper relationship with the land in one place. But for now, the wind is blowing me, so I'll go with that.

Sherry Walling - 0:03:32
You have a relationship with the wind.

Leia Friedman - 0:03:35

Sherry Walling - 0:03:35
What-- what have you learned from the land over the course of your life?

Leia Friedman - 0:03:40
The first thing that's coming to mind is how the Earth can be a powerful vessel for transmuting energy that that I can't change on my own. So grief, trauma, sort of like I can offer that to the land because she knows what to do with it. So, that's one thing I've learned is kind of to work in relationship together for collective healing because I know-- you know, what my journeys with psychedelics have taught me is that we're all one and also each being is a sovereign entity as well. It's this dichotomy, and so we can work together with the Earth to heal in-- in kind of a bidirectional or a symbiotic relationship. I think the land has also taught me, and also Octavia Butler, the author, has taught me that change is the only thing that you can really count on, and Octavia Butler, one of the characters in her story, Parable of the Sower, says God has changed.

Leia Friedman - 0:04:38
So, I think that the land teaches me that again and again as well. Just when I was living in Costa Rica, how in the dry season, the river has a shape and a flow, and I had typically been in Costa Rica in the dry season, so I kind of knew the river. And then when I was stuck there and the rainy season came, oh my gosh, how the whole riverbed changed so much, and like sometimes it would rain so hard that boulders like literal boulders would be tumbling down the river like-- like earthquake level sounds and shaking just from the water flowing down from the mountains. So, just the the mighty force of the elements and the Earth as well. It's something to-- to respect.

Sherry Walling - 0:05:23
Yeah. I've read Octavia Butler's books. I don't know maybe a month after went into lockdown. So the earth, the world had a very like intense quality to it anyway. And then to dive into that series of books was really intense and powerful and healing. And especially, in this sort of post-apocalyptic world, returning to seeds as is like most sacred, most precious life-sustaining peace of our world. So, I'm glad to hear you referenced those 'cause I loved those books.

Leia Friedman - 0:05:56
Yeah, yeah. Seeds are miracles really, and I think that you and I were probably reading Octavia at the same time because I read like eight of her books while I was in Costa Rica.

Sherry Walling - 0:06:07
Oh, wow. So when you-- when you think about your experiences with psychedelics and it sounds like you spend a period of time working with ayahuasca in Costa Rica and whatever else that may have been part of your journey in that direction, how has that helped you to see maybe more clearly or differently your relationship to the land?

Leia Friedman - 0:06:30
Oh well, I'll take you way back to my first trip ever. I was planning to go to an ayahuasca retreat center. I had never taken psychedelics at all. I hadn't really taken many drugs or medicines for that matter at that point, and I was-- I didn't really know what to expect. A friend gave me one tab of LSD, and she said, "You should probably take this at some point before you go do ayahuasca because I think you should know kind of what it's like and what you're getting yourself into." I said, "Okay," so that trip which I still even though it was like eight or nine years ago now, I still learn from it.

Leia Friedman - 0:07:00
I'm still integrating it. One thing that happened is I was watching my house plants, which I'm sorry to say at that time I wasn't taking great care of them. And but-- they, you know, I had slept them around with me, and they-- they came with, but they weren't like giving-- being given attention, or that we weren't in relationships so much yet, and I watched them grow and die, and grow and die. Just like this cycle of growing and dying of my houseplant, which obviously it was just standing still, but that's what I saw, and it was so moving. And it helped me realized that since I was a child, I was so in connection to the cycles of nature.

Leia Friedman - 0:07:45
I lived in the woods, on a river. I was always talking to the plants like imagining this whole village of creatures, and we were all together, and I was part of it, and then I at some point that was-- there was like a rupture in that relationship. I think it was when I came into adolescence, my parents got divorced. I got really into boys and relationships, and I just kind of forgot my first relationship, which was with the land. I also had struggled with eating disorders and body dysmorphia my whole life from-- from like really young.

Leia Friedman - 0:08:19
It was like some of my first memories were dysmorphic memories about my body. I realized that that connection with nature being severed was part of like my sickness and then it would also be part of my healing.

Sherry Walling - 0:08:37
Yeah. I think a lot of people have psychedelic experiences in which they have this really new and deep appreciation for their connectedness to the world around them, to the earth around them, to the plants that they are responsible for. And I think, a lot of folks are sort of struggling with how do I put myself back into the cycle of nature in a way that honors and reflects the gifts that I've been given through my journey work. I am just curious what-- what-- what thoughts or wisdom you might have about that question?

Leia Friedman - 0:09:11
Well, after I began going to Costa Rica and working with ayahuasca and I did have a lot of healing, I had aversion to a lot of like being outside things like bugs, dirt. If my feet got dirty or sandy, I just like couldn't really relax until I could wash them off, and it did keep me out of things, and then I had an ayahuasca journey where I sort of blacked out is not the right word because it was not black where I went. I like went somewhere else, and I-- I think I like fell back not-- not in a dangerous way, but I like leaned back and when I-- when I came to from this unbelievable vision of-- of like zooming down these channels and I didn't know actually what it was at the time. But later, I realized I was seeing plant consciousness and the way that nutrients and water move up and down the stalk of a plant. I was feeling the pull down into the earth, the way that the roots search for water and minerals in the soil and feeling the elongation towards the sun. I was feeling all these things, and I didn't know what they were. Later as I described what I felt, I said, "Oh, my gosh, that's like what it's like to be a plant." But anyway, I woke up and I was kind of like doing snow angels in the dirt like I was like rubbing dirt on my mouth, and it was so delicious.

Leia Friedman - 0:10:22
It was like so sensual and like amazing. So, I would-- I'd say like if there's anyone listening who feels disconnected from nature, give yourself some time. There probably will be some breakthrough experience, and maybe that's like you finally decide to kick your shoes off and walk barefoot on the grass sometime, and really tuning into the sensation of that can be very powerful.

Sherry Walling - 0:10:53
Well, you talked a little bit about environmental justice. What are you thinking about related to that?

Leia Friedman - 0:11:01
I had a trip the other day. It's like this whole episode is about my trips, but yeah, in-- in it, I-- I was-- so, I got Lyme disease this summer. And that's been really interesting too, because I actually coach a few different people who have Lyme, and I've just-- my gosh, it seems so debilitating, but also a great teacher to these people, and it was no doubt from the beginning that it was going to be teaching me too. So, as I was really sick with this, and when I began to recover, right? Like I took a trip to sort of process psychologically what had been happening, and I saw kind of my body as this vessel wherein there's my personality, my genetics, my soul, just like the essence of myself. And then, there's also like the Lyme is in there too.

Leia Friedman - 0:11:48
And then, there's the antibiotics, and they're kind of all working in-- and it was this big swirling group, and then-- and then the vessel of me with all of that activity within it, which was just so complex and rich. I was within this complex and rich context, which was a world on fire, flooding, drought, famine, sickness and pain, and it was all being sucked into this black hole of like just out in the universe, which I-- I don't actually know much of the cosmos. I feel like I'll learn that at some point, but I think we are moving towards the black hole, right? Isn't everything kind of the black holes are sucking everything?

Sherry Walling - 0:12:32
Sure. I mean, I think by definition, that's what they do. The whole matter toward them.

Leia Friedman - 0:12:38
Right, right, right. Yeah. So-- so with all of these forces, the consequences of human activity are throwing the forces on our planet like our spaceship here out of balance. I believe that it's the disconnection between us, between people and the land. This is at the core of-- of that violence, and for awhile, I was pretty obsessive about recycling everything. You know, not making waste as much as I could, composting, and then like that rigidity actually created a lot of unease in me, so I've settled into a place of like I think there's systemic change that needs to happen. I know that as a consumer, me recycling is not going to stop climate change.

Leia Friedman - 0:13:21
Its corporations who are largely-- like the activity of corporations is responsible for where we're headed. It doesn't mean I don't have a part to play, and that I'm not in ways complicit by being the owner of a car, which I own a Prius. But also, I know that to make a Prius, you need to generate a lot more energy, to make that battery and that-- that light cards, like it almost doesn't even make up for itself till it's quite old. So being aware that we are consumers and, you know, living in capitalism, corporations have an agenda to make us feel like we're going to feel better if we buy the product, we need this product for some reason, or like we can feel good about this product because it's recycled or whatever. So, I think each person needs to figure out like what they are called to to participate in this.

Leia Friedman - 0:14:08
And maybe, it's just telling the truth about it, but it's like, yeah, I would say I'm very frightened of climate change and disaster that we're headed toward. It's probably my biggest fear at this point in my life, and I'm hoping to connect with other people that are-- that are dealing with that fear as well, so that we can like be in community together and find out what to do.

Sherry Walling - 0:14:34
And does psychedelics have a part to play in that story?

Leia Friedman - 0:14:37
I mean, they certainly will. They do. They already are, and that's like for better or for worse, because I think in this psychedelic renaissance-- and some clients do come to me with this idea that I think is put out there by books like Michael Pollan's book How to Change Your Mind that like this is a panacea. That this is-- there's like a linear route, take some psychedelics and you'll be healed. And maybe, people have heard these amazing stories of people being healed, and I have amazing stories and I don't think I'd be so healed if it wasn't for those medicines. And yet, it was the work I did in between the sessions, and it was the support I received from other people, who were generous with their space-- holding space for me.

Leia Friedman - 0:15:18
That's where the healing came from. So, I think that you know, studies have showed that psychedelics can increase a sense of connection to nature and nature relatedness in people, and other studies have showed that that can lead to better mental health and correlates with better just all across the board, more-- more health. And then, we also have like I said, people can view them as it's just going to solve all their problems and--

Sherry Walling - 0:15:47
The magic pill.

Leia Friedman - 0:15:49
Yup, the magic pill. And also, I think psychedelics can really bring up our shadow. I've always believed it so that we can see it, and that's like that goes for difficult experiences as much as euphoric, ecstatic experiences. Sometimes, I-- I've seen people get kind of lost in that and going back again and again to the medicine space without distilling those messages down into how they walk in the world every day. So, I think psychedelics play a role. I do believe that psychedelics are like one of the last chances that we have. It's like-- this is like I think they call it the Hail Mary play or something like that.

Sherry Walling - 0:16:27
The last ditch attempt, like just throw it as hard as you can, and hope it lands in the right spot.

Leia Friedman - 0:16:32
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, I hope it lands in the right spot, and I think that in this psychedelic movement, there is a duty to-- to facilitate that because these medicines or tools and tools can be used for all sorts of agendas.

Sherry Walling - 0:16:49
And certainly, there are companies and organizations who are wanting to jump in on the renaissance. And I mean, probably most with mixed motives, right? Like most of us have mixed motives about most of the things that we do, both to increase access and safety, but also to make money and be good capitalists. Talk to me about if psychedelics are sort of the Hail Mary, how do we-- how do we hold that well as businesses, as organizations, and as individuals?

Leia Friedman - 0:17:20
I think that reciprocity is critical. Reciprocity or Ayni in the Quechua language, it's like there are a lot of different ways to interpret this term, but what Ayni means is today for you and then tomorrow for myself. So, it's like thinking about how not just to give back, but how we can be in an ongoing reciprocal relationship of giving and receiving 'cause we are receiving all the time. I mean, every single breath we're receiving from the trees that breathed it out back to us, so reciprocity is important. Like this can be to indigenous communities that have stewarded these medicines for a long time. For example, in Huautla in the state of Oaxaca, Mexico is the town that the sacred mushrooms, psilocybin mushroom like that was where Maria Sabina, a curandera, a healer with the mushroom kind of shared it with the Western world, but not-- not consent-- not fully consensually.

Leia Friedman - 0:18:17
She was sort of tricked by these white guys that came down. R. Gordon Wasson and his associates, and they-- they kind of deceived her, and-- and thus the mushroom was brought to the United States. And now you know, it's grown in lots of people's closets and heals lots of people. I'm so grateful for that medicine, and at the same time, I have to recognize the story, like the origin story of that. And I'm aware that the psychedelic tourism to that area sort of destroyed the local economy.

Leia Friedman - 0:18:46
Maria Sabina herself died in poverty, so being conscientious, I think, about sharing if-- if-- if we are fortunate to have access to resources like financial resources, sharing those with communities from where these medicines have been shared with us. And also I think, like I have a hat, it says you are on native land, and I feel like this is just a reminder that we all kind of ought to, and we deserve to be reminded of this unceded indigenous land. So perhaps, like there's reciprocity to the stewards of the land that you are on. It may be worthwhile to learn the name of the people who have stewarded the land that you were on, and how to say like hello and thank you even more to have relationship, and-- and not just like superficial like, "Okay, this podcast told me to do that," but like being, you know, having that intention for relationship and solidarity. Another thing I would say is really critical to remember is access.

Leia Friedman - 0:19:47
And so, access is making sure that people who need these medicines the most have the ability to access them. That is important. And some of these psychedelic corporations are, you know, promising to be able to deliver lower cost medicine and treatment. And so that's you know, that sounds good. And also, there's a systemic change that needs to take place, like it is not ethical in my opinion, to heal people and then send them back into the world from where they experienced sexual trauma, racial trauma, et cetera.

Leia Friedman - 0:20:23
So, if there's such focus on treating the symptoms of the problem, which is systemic oppression, I think this comes from capitalism in a way. But yeah, it-- it's going to be a lot bigger than this. Kind of like this is the end of the line. Like we're treating trauma, let's also see if we can go trace back and try to stop that trauma.

Sherry Walling - 0:20:48
Going back to the trauma-causing systems and institutions.

Leia Friedman - 0:20:52

Sherry Walling - 0:20:52
I guess one of the challenges that comes up as is, you know, seeing things like iboga being potentially incredibly powerful for helping to alleviate really the horror of addiction and also recognizing that that comes from a very specific plant in a very specific place. And so, one way around that that might be more sustainable is in synthesizing the compound, creating it in a lab so that it mirrors the same chemical reaction, but doesn't have to be harvested from Gabon. Yeah, how do you-- how do you weigh like the pros and cons of that? 'Cause I think that's probably where some of this world is going, at least in the-- in the laboratory. What concerns do you have or what benefits do you see?

Leia Friedman - 0:21:35
It's a great question. I appreciate it very much and I've been thinking about it this week, in fact, not about iboga but about 5-MeO-DMT. So, I actually didn't know that you could synthesize ibogaine or noribogaine. I thought that even when it's administered not in a whole plant form, that in some way it was derived from the plant at some point. So, that's really cool to know, because the-- the plant is endangered, and-- and it takes like seven, I think, seven plus years to reach maturity. And as with the peyote cactus and the-- their habitat devastation. So, synthetic versus organic?

Leia Friedman - 0:22:06
So, I'll-- can I speak to 5-MeO 'cause that's what I've been thinking?

Sherry Walling - 0:22:16
Of course, yeah.

Leia Friedman - 0:22:18
Okay. So, Hamilton Morris from Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, not always the biggest fan of his, but also like and sometimes a fan. And I've talked to him, and-- and he's-- he's very knowledgeable, and he seems like a solid person. He was saying that synthetic or from the toad, it's the same and that we should really like, "Please, everyone use synthetic. These toads are suffering. They're endangered." Like it's kind of-- I just-- just the thought of taking medicine that came from an animal that's being tortured is like giving me goosebumps right now.

Leia Friedman - 0:22:44
So, that's valid. And also, I'm in a few psychedelic forums on Facebook and online, and some people were saying like, "No, it-- it absolutely is different. There's a spirit in it when it comes from the frog and there's not a toad-- there's no spirit in the synthetic." Yeah, and this is bringing to mind like I read an article in Symposia about how crude oil is required to make MDMA. It's like MDMA has a carbon footprint, and so yikes, all of this just makes me want to like run off the grid right now.

Sherry Walling - 0:23:21
It makes it really hard, right? To-- to think about how do I engage in this world in an ethical, sustainable way that honors where things come from, but also is minimizing the impact that each of us as individuals, and then as a collective community may have. So, instead of running off the grid, what do you think? Don't run away. We need you.

Leia Friedman - 0:23:43
I might tripped off of the grid, but I won't run away. And thank you, that's nice. We need-- we need you too. I'd say like the relationship to the medicine is a part of the healing, and so whether the medicine came from your backyard, in your garden or your closet or from a friend, or you don't know where it came from, whether it was created in a lab or not, we can create relationship with it by you know, for instance, making an altar and putting the medicine on the altar to kind of charge it up with all that good stuff that's there. I have friends who work with ketamine, and say that ketamine has a spirit, and that they can feel and they know the spirit of it.

Leia Friedman - 0:24:20
So, I'm hopeful that folks can get solid healing experiences from lab-derived medicines, right? Like the LSD that I took, that came from a lab, and that was super. It was all about nature. So and then, I-- I think I'd like to say it is of great importance that medicines that come from indigenous traditions that those people still have access to those medicines, and that-- that way of life, which is about, you know, protecting land and sovereignty of indigenous peoples. So when it comes to peyote, for example, if I'm invited to a peyote sit by a native person, I would consider going in that case like that would be very special.

Leia Friedman - 0:25:07
But if I want to have a healing experience, then I will take San Pedro, and they both contain mescaline, and I'll be content with that. And yeah, I'm open to things that come from the lab. You know, you talked about sustainability, and I have a permaculture background, and something I learned from my teacher Starhawk is that sustainability will keep us functioning, you know, where we are. It's like sustaining the level that it's at, and we really need--

Sherry Walling - 0:25:33
Like staying in the same place at homeostasis?

Leia Friedman - 0:25:36
Exactly. Yeah, staying in the same place, which on a global level is we're not really at a homeostasis right now. So, I like to think about regenerative solutions, which are like actually repairing the depletion that has been caused by human activity. So, I think about-- about not just how psychedelic medicines can be sustainable, but how can they be regenerative. And there's a lot of directions to take that in.

Sherry Walling - 0:26:02
Do you have a couple of examples? 'Cause I love that. I'm in love with the term regenerative solutions.

Leia Friedman - 0:26:07
Yeah, definitely, yeah. Well, here's one. So, we were talking about the mushroom, and it's relatively easy to grow mushrooms at home, and-- and this is like a-- it's even easier than keeping a garden in some ways, and the materials required are fairly accessible, so that's-- that's one thing that's like with psychedelics. But just talking about growing food in general, some people call it plant guilds or like there-- there are things that love to grow together and that will actually keep each other going in a in-- a closed system. For instance, like aquaponics where the fish will be eating from the plants that are growing, and then they will poop, and the poop will be feeding something else in the water, and it's so-- it's all-sustaining. And the products of that can feed the people that are living there, and then maybe there's a compost system to make soil out of the human waste, humanure. So, this is one example of regenerative solutions where there's no waste because nothing actually is waste and that's a permaculture principle.

Leia Friedman - 0:27:05
It's-- it's just about our lack of creativity to figure out how to use it.

Sherry Walling - 0:27:18
Redirecting the "waste" to where it can be utilized.

Leia Friedman - 0:27:22
Uh-uh. Yup, exactly. And if it's contaminated with toxic chemicals, then it's very hard to utilize that, but there are plenty of ways to live without-- without going that route. The soil is being depleted by the modern agricultural practices. Even organic farming like to have this stamp of organic farming. It doesn't mean that the land isn't being like taken from and not--

Sherry Walling - 0:27:49

Leia Friedman - 0:27:49
Yeah, exactly. So for instance, the farm I used to live at Happy Acres Farm. We had 90 acres of grass like organic. It was like there was grass and clover and all these yummy things the cows could eat. They were walking around, pooping. The poop was like nourishing the soil. Their hooves aerate the soil to allow more air and movements.

Leia Friedman - 0:28:10
So, this-- this was regenerative. Where before the folks John and Catherine who changed that into a grass-fed beef farm, it was a conventional dairy farm with just rows and rows and rows of corn feed to feed the cows and then all that-- all that was produced from that was milk. Meanwhile, the soil was getting tired. So yeah, I think like grass-fed conventional beef is like a major contributor to climate change, but it doesn't have to be that way. Like yeah, doing grass-fed farming can--

Sherry Walling - 0:28:42
Can be regenerative.

Leia Friedman - 0:28:44
Yeah, exactly.

Sherry Walling - 0:28:46
Anything else that feels important to add to the conversation?

Leia Friedman - 0:28:50
Okay. I think I just want to say this last thing. Pleasure is healing so...

Sherry Walling - 0:28:57
Amen. I don't know what you're gonna say, but I'm on board.

Leia Friedman - 0:29:01
Yeah, I love to take something out of right field. Yeah, the-- the-- the healing journey it's-- I grew up in public education, and I sort of got this idea instilled in me that progress or growth, it's like going to come from pain and sacrifice. And I just think that that is, we don't-- that's not-- that's not how nature does it. It's like, you know, have you-- if you've ever seen a bee kind of tickling the inside of a flower like it's all very juicy and sensual. Even the natural fires that would take place, it brings forth amazing growth. Now, this is not like the-- the fires that are happening on the West Coast now are way out of control.

Leia Friedman - 0:29:33
This is absolutely from human activity, but just to bring it back to-- to pleasure and recreation. I think that there are many ways to work with psychedelic medicines and even outside of psychedelic contexts. Just healing in general, laughing, enjoying a pleasurable sensory experience. These are-- these are all-- you deserve this and it's our birthright to feel good. And I think, that there are ways that we can feel good that don't-- that don't produce this waste that can't go back into the system like so...

Leia Friedman - 0:30:03
So, really listening to what-- what I'm called to. And I'd invite anyone listening to this podcast to think about, you know, where they feel drawn to and what feels good for them and to-- to honor that. The sacredness of of pleasure, that this is part of the healing journey too.

Sherry Walling - 0:30:29
I really appreciate ending the conversation that way because I think as you referenced earlier, sometimes there can be some rigidity and neurosis around. How do I do it right? How do I make sure I'm not taking? How do I ethically give back? How am I reciprocal? And-- and those things are important questions, but maybe not asked with exactly that tone, right? That there's still a lightness and delight in participating in the cycle, and that there's again, this sort of joyful pleasure play that can go along with regenerative solutions.

Sherry Walling - 0:30:54
It shouldn't be a conversation that goes along with, yeah, deep guilt and rigidity.

Leia Friedman - 0:31:09
That's right, that's right.

Sherry Walling - 0:31:11
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of MIND CURIOUS. As always, I love to hear what you think, what your questions are, what curiosities have been stirred within you. You can engage with the content of this podcast and all the places that you find MIND CURE out in the world. So, all major social media platforms and on Please don't hesitate to reach out. We are wrapping up this first season of the podcast here pretty soon, so be sure to tune in.

Sherry Walling - 0:31:37
Stay informed with our next couple episodes. In the meantime, stay curious. 

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